With some "Marx was right" banners being prominently displayed by protesters in Prague this morning at the anti-IMF/World Bank meeting, maybe the timing of this appearance is right. Thanks for joining us Mr. Harris. Good morning.

Harris: Good morning. I'm glad to be here.

Lehrer: We've done this before, haven't we?

Harris: Yes, we have.

Lehrer: And with little to show for your past efforts at running for president, you're still at it.

Harris: I don't know you can say there is little to show. We direct our message to the working class as a whole, which is mounting resistance to the increasingly brutal conditions that exist in the country today, even with the so-called economic boom or economic miracle that is taking place. More and more working people are wondering why they are not included in it. They have said, "Enough. We must begin to fight." That's who we address.  
 
Capitalism, not IMF, is the problem
Lehrer: Are you paying attention to the Prague demonstrations this morning? Is this an issue that concerns you--the IMF [International Monetary Fund] and the World Bank?

Harris: The IMF and World Bank aren't the central problems working people face. Here is the reason why: The central problem working people face is capitalism itself and the expansion of capitalism during this so-called economic miracle in this country. The IMF and the World Bank are merely tools of the capitalist system, tools of the predominant imperialist powers in the world, like the United States, Britain, France, Germany, and Belgium. I think when we talked before, one of the things I pointed out was that the issue is not a vague "globalization." The issue is imperialism.

Imperialism is based upon nation-states. It includes conflicts between imperialist powers, conflicts with the Third World nations and working people who live there, and conflicts with the working class in their own countries.

Lehrer: Interesting. A lot of people on the left today say it's not so much about nation-states anymore, but about corporate power, and corporations--especially in the global era--becoming less accountable to the governments of nation-states.

Harris: Well, yes. That is one of the things I very much disagree with. That is why we use the term imperialism to describe the social and economic relations in the world rather than globalization. We want to pinpoint what the real problems are. The United States is the dominant imperialist power in the world. It dominates the United Nations, the World Bank, and other such institutions. It runs them in conflict with other imperialist powers, such as Canada or Great Britain, or France or Germany. It runs them both in conflict with their competitors on a world scale and in partnership with them against the Third World and the working class as a whole.

Lehrer: And who runs the United States?

Harris: The United States is run by a small handful of super-rich ruling families, about the same 60 families that have run the United States for over a century. It is run by wealth. There are class divisions in the United States that are on the increase. The gap between the rich and poor in the United States is on the increase. Real wages have been declining.

The source of the capitalist boom or upturn in the economy is what the employers have imposed on workers: increasing working hours, worsening of conditions among immigrant laborers, and a significant increase in the intensification of labor. This is happening at the same time real wages have continued to go down.

Lehrer: This is On the Line at AM 820, WNYC. My guest is the Socialist Workers Party candidate for president of the United States, as we continue to fulfill our pledge to have every candidate on the ballot in New York State for at least one appearance on the program. We can take a few phone calls for candidate James Harris at (212) 267-9292 as we continue to get his views.

If you were president and had a compliant Congress, what is the first law you might try to enact?

Harris: Our campaign points out that working people in the United States advance our interests through our own struggles. Gains we have made have only been through the fights we have engaged in. These have often been reflected in Congress and legislation. It is not voting or who is elected to office that decides these questions. Working people need to extend our organization, both through unionization of the working class as a whole, and through political organization, which is needed in order to break from the Democrats and Republicans and the two-party system. These are parties that represent the rich, not working people.

Lehrer: Ralph Nader has caught the imagination of much of the disenfranchised left in America this year as an alternative party candidate. What do you think about Ralph Nader?

Harris: One of the problems of the Nader campaign is that it aims to push the Democratic Party to the left. It is not a break with the Democrats, but it acts as a left wing of that party. The Democrats and the Republicans are part of a two-party system. The Nader campaign and the Green Party fit within the framework of the two-party system.

The problem with the two-party system is not that the two parties don't differ--they couldn't get people to vote for them if they didn't differ a little bit--but the problem is that it constantly poses a "lesser evil" to head off the independent organization of the working class outside of the parties of the rich.

What is needed is a real working-class political party that puts forward a program in opposition to the rich and uncompromisingly advances the interests of all working people in common with our brothers and sisters around the world.

Caller: I had two questions. The first is that, given the reality that either Bush or Gore is going to win the election, which of the two candidates do you favor as most in line with the needs you see. The second question is, who are the 60 families who run the United States?

Harris: The ruling class in the United States are real people and families with names, such as Rockefeller, Du Pont, Gates, and others. They are the multibillionaire families that through their social position, wealth, ownership of the means of production, and connections actually run the United States.

When working people begin to confront the fact that we can't change the United States and government policy just through electoral politics and voting, they begin to ask themselves: who is in control and why? Who profits from the big rise in oil prices? Who owns the oil companies? Who owns the basic industry in the United States that determines the lives of millions and millions of people? Who decides and profits when the United States intervenes through war and other means around the world? Why give $1.3 billion to Colombia? It has to do with the opposing interests of the ruling class in the United States and those of the working class.

Caller: I'd like to ask Mr. Harris about what he thinks about the attacks on immigrants in Farmingville, Long Island.

Harris: I'm glad you asked that question. I think the whole labor movement should be involved in protesting this attack on the rights of immigrants and the attempt to murder two workers last week. The United States government is responsible for this, with their laws and propaganda that aim to criminalize this whole section of the population. Their aim is to make it a pariah layer in order to justify low wages, intolerable working conditions, and denial of democratic rights.

The Clinton administration spearheaded the passage of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. It took constitutional rights away from massive numbers of immigrant workers. It helped to criminalize them, giving a green light to right-wing attacks upon them.

Immigrant workers are a boon to the working class in the United States because they help bring combativity and more class consciousness to it. The aim of the ruling class is to keep the working class divided and at the same time keep immigrant workers in a position so they can be superexploited. But they are joining the fightback, asserting their rights and human dignity.  
 
We don't need third pro-capitalist party
Caller: Mr. Harris, good morning. I'm wondering if you don't think that you are really doing a disservice to the overall movement by really taking a small splinter away from Ralph Nader's programs and his platform. In light of the fact that due to whatever the circumstances, fortuitous or otherwise, he's got such excellent name recognition, his candidacy would stand a much better chance if all the various organizations that stand for the same principles united behind it. What are your thoughts on that?

Harris: One of the reasons I never talk about a third party is that we don't need a third party. What we need is an absolute class break from the parties of the rich. Ralph Nader's party, the Green Party, views itself as a party that is a pressure on the Democratic Party. What we need is a class break from them....

Caller: But you are wrong on that. Your supposition is incorrect on that. The fundamental fact is that the Green Party has an international foundation, it is a real party, it has elected people in foreign countries and...

Harris: As long as the working class is in the position of subordinating its political needs to various capitalist parties, parties that think that capitalism can be reformed, then we are in a trap and we're not moving forward as a class.

What is the fundamental thing that is needed by the working class? The fundamental thing needed by the working class is independent organization on our part as a class to begin to put forward the demands of our class. It is not a man on a white horse. It is not the Green Party.

Workers are resisting the assault by the government and the employers in many ways. There are a growing number of strikes and attempts to organize a union. There are struggles and demonstrations. There is the beginnings of a social movement in the coalfields by mine workers, other working people, and youth.

The logic of this is to transform our unions into fighting instruments and establish our own political organization based on the experiences of our struggles and our organizations. We need to organize to take political power and put a workers and farmers government in place. We need revolutionary change. That's what we bring to politics.

Lehrer: If capitalism can't be reformed, how far would you go? What would you replace it with? What would the society look like?

Harris: We are a revolutionary party. We think what is needed is a workers and farmers government that can lead the fight to overturn capitalism and lead tens of millions of people to start constructing a socialist society, based on cooperation with the rest of humanity. This is the only way forward for the working class.

Capitalism will lurch more and more toward crisis. Even in these times of the so-called economic miracle, the worsening conditions working people face are literally forcing us to engage in more strikes and struggles, such as there are among meat packers, unionized workers, and workers struggling for a union.

Lehrer: Is there a country in the world that is similar to the system that you envision?

Harris: The one country we talk about as an example for working people is Cuba. We point out what has been gained there and the revolutionary change necessary for it to come about. I recently went to Cuba, for example, with a group of farmers who are interested in Cuba because there have been no farm foreclosures there for 42 years since the revolution, which enacted a massive land reform. Look at their ability to send doctors throughout the world. Their ability to engage in an actual fight against apartheid in South Africa when it invaded Angola. Cuba is an example for working people to look toward, to study, and to get past the lies that are told about Cuba by the U.S. government. These are some of the reasons the U.S. government doesn't want people to go there and see it.

Lehrer: A lot of poverty in Cuba, no?

Harris: Well, Cuba is a Third World country. A lot of poverty was imposed by what the United States carried out in Cuba before the revolution and since the revolution with the economic blockade. I would encourage you to compare Cuba to the rest of Latin America and other Third World countries in what it is able to assure for its citizens. But Cuba is a poor country. The fact that it is poor doesn't mean it can't be an example for those wanting to find a way to struggle forward and how working people can live our lives with dignity, some honor, and free of exploitation.

Lehrer: This has been James E. Harris, presidential candidate of the Socialist Workers Party, as we continue to have every candidate who is on the ballot before election day, November 7. Mr. Harris, thank you so much.

Harris: Thank you.

[Jacob Perasso, SWP candidate for Senate in New York, will be on Lehrer's show October 11 at 11:15 a.m.]  
 
 
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